I'd forgotten that the Mark Bowden interview I linked to the other day is hidden behind a firewall. So here are some more of his observations on the subject of interrogation, taken from a symposium held last year:
Now, like most people, I'm repelled by the idea of torture. I have a hard time disciplining my teenage boys, a failing for which they punish me daily. I am a member of the ACLU, and have supported Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.
But as I began researching and thinking about this topic, I could certainly conceive of certain situations where, I felt, coercing information from a suspect would be the right thing to do. And, as it happened, while I was working on this story, there was an article in The New York Times about a crime in Germany where a kidnapper had taken a 12-year old boy, and had buried him alive. He went to collect the ransom, and was caught. He was in custody, and refused to tell the police where he had buried the child. The police chief in this case threatened the kidnapper with torture, and he promptly told him where he buried the boy.
Now, in the same article, it said that Amnesty International was urging that this police chief be charged, or punished, for threatening torture. The same day that story came out, I happened to be on my way to an interview at Amnesty International in Washington. So I sat down with some of the folks there, and asked them whether in that circumstance, they really would object to the threat of torture. I said, "What if that was your own child? Wouldn't you do anything to find out where your child was buried?"
And, understandably, they stood behind their organization's principal mission. But not me. I side with the police chief in that instance. I think my only question about how to get information from the kidnapper would be, "What works?"
And I feel the same way, in all honesty, about someone like Kahlid Sheik Muhammad, who is a man who has spent his life plotting ever worsening acts of mass murder, and is someone who is the leader of an organization that presumably has other attacks in the works. I think that coercive interrogation is a vitally important tool in fighting a terrorist organization.
But, it's also dangerous and very slippery ground, as we've seen in the scandals in Afghanistan, Iraq and Guantanamo. I think that what the Bush Administration did with some of the things that it said, if not some of the policies or memoranda that it produced, was to loosen the standards just a little bit, and I think that what happens when you do that is that you invite a human rights disaster.
Bryan Appleyard has some provocative thoughts on the issue, and paraphrases philosopher John Gray:
Gray's argument is the most fundamental. His is not a moral observation about whether we should or shouldn't permit torture. He is simply saying that it is an illusion that such things can be banished from human affairs by human aspiration. Our reason, our moralities, our hopes can do nothing against the dark logic of our tribal natures. As Isaiah Berlin pointed out, it would be nice if we really were the rational beings of which the Enlightenment thinkers dreamed, but we aren't, we are tribal carnivores.